..
22 February
2002
TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON JOHN HOWARD MP
RADIO INTERVIEW WITH JOHN LAWS, 2UE
Subjects: Governor General
LAWS:
Prime Minister, good morning and welcome.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning John good to be with you again.
LAWS:
You are under a bit of pressure arent you here and
there?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes theres been a bit happening the last couple
of weeks but that goes with the territory and I have had
a fair amount of experience in handling pressure and I
just try and deal with each issue on the merits as it
arises.
LAWS:
Okay, well lets have a look at this whole thing.
Assumedly you saw Australian Story?
PRIME MINISTER:
I did.
LAWS:
Were you shocked by any of the answers given by Peter
Hollingworth?
PRIME MINISTER:
I was puzzled about one of them and you know which one.
LAWS:
Yeah
PRIME MINISTER:
He
and he made a statement yesterday. I think the
statement he made yesterday, the intent of that was to
withdraw any impression people had got that in some way
you could condone sex with an under age child.
LAWS:
Well do you understand that he failed to do that because
he contradicted himself?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Ive seen the newspapers this morning and
Ive seen the ABC rerun the original tape,
dont know that
.let me put it this way, I
dont think what has come out alters the fact that
the purpose of what he said yesterday was to withdraw
that impression and I know from discussion with him that
that is his view and I am sure it is the view of
everybody listening to this program and it certainly is
my view.
LAWS:
Okay, well lets
.
PRIME MINISTER:
But I dont want to get into a position of trying to
interpret and reinterpret what may have been his intent
when he answered
..
LAWS:
Okay but theres little to interpret, theres
very little to interpret. Let me just play you the two
pieces, thatll simplify it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, please do.
[tape
insert Governor-General]
that occurred between a young priest and a
teenage girl who was under the age of consent. I believe
she was more than 14. I also understand that many years
later in adult life their relationship resumed and it was
partly a pastoral relationship and it was partly
something more. My belief is that this was not sex abuse,
there was no suggestion of rape or anything like that
quite the contrary. My information is that it was rather
the other way round and I dont want to say any more
than that.
LAWS:
Okay, now when Dr Hollingworth made his statement his, I
presume unscheduled stop and statement to the press
yesterday, this is what he said.
[tape
insert Governor-General]
I thought I was talking about an adult relationship
and I want to make an unreserved apology to the woman
concerned and to the whole of the Australian public. That
was not what I meant and I realise that that particular
little segment has been picked up and used on the media
yesterday.
LAWS:
Now Prime Minister he obviously said in the Australia
Story that he was referring to a young couple he said
under the age of consent he did believe that she was more
than 14 and then yesterday he said I thought I was
talking about an adult relationship.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well look
..
LAWS:
Hes absolutely contradicted himself.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I understand the juxtaposition and I understand
that, but I dont really think its appropriate
for me other than to say more, it really is a matter for
him to further deal with it if he chooses, but I do know
this that the view he expressed at the doorstop yesterday
that he doesnt in any way condone
.
LAWS:
Ah well I know I know that.
PRIME MINISTER:
. is his view.
LAWS:
Yep, well we all know that.
PRIME MINISTER:
And I mean I think I think once again its a
question of, I dont reckon hes expressed
himself very well if I may say so.
LAWS:
Well I mean hes totally contradicted himself .
PRIME MINISTER:
I really, I really dont, but I dont think
that goes to the question of whether he condones or
doesnt condone. So I dont think there is any
question that he, of course he doesnt condone.
LAWS:
But if what he said yesterday he meant, he clearly
didnt tell the truth. He lied.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, thats an allegation that youre making.
I am in no position to answer that because I didnt
make the statement.
LAWS:
No, but given
PRIME MINISTER:
Ill answer, Ill answer as to my own
statements, I cant
LAWS:
Yes but but with respect.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I know that
.
LAWS:
But with respect hearing what he said, hearing what he
said, you heard both things he said.
PRIME MINISTER:
I did.
LAWS:
The second thing was clearly contradictory of the first.
I thought I was talking about an adult
couple. And yet in the statement he made on
Australia Story he said they were under, the girl was
under the age of consent, they were a young couple. He
then went on to say some years later in adulthood, there
was no doubt in his mind that he was talking about a
young girl. The next day he said he wasnt , he was
talking about an older couple. Clearly not correct.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I understand that interpretations been put on
it and I understand why it would be put on it and I
wouldnt suggest that he was setting out to be
deceptive and lying. I think thats harsh. He he
does, there is, it is open to the interpretation that
hes contradicted himself.
LAWS:
Yeah, well he
PRIME MINISTER:
But that ..
LAWS:
He may not have intended to.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well I, look I dont think he did, but once
again it is very difficult as you know in your long
experience in listening to people and talking to people
and interpreting what people say. It is next to
impossible for one person to fully understand and answer
for why another person says a particular thing. I mean in
my situation and the judgement I made yesterday which was
based on all the information in front of me I reached a
certain conclusion, but I dont think its
helping the situation for me to give a continuing running
commentary on every single thing the Governor General
says. I dont think he will be saying anything more
about this issue in the immediate future
LAWS:
Hes certainly going to be asked
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, John, I understand the reality of where we are at
the moment. The Governor General will respond to any
further things that may be said on the Sunday program,
but the question of his Office is one which I have to
make a judgement about in relation to all the facts and
circumstances and the judgement I held, and hold, is that
on the information available there are no grounds to
advise his removal and it would not be proper to do so.
As to whether in relation to a particular issue, he has
contradicted himself, I mean, I guess over the years I
have contradicted myself, I mean we all do on occasions.
If you do it deliberately and with a particular purpose
then youre deserving of criticism. But if you do it
inadvertently then youre not deserving of
criticism. Now only he can answer for what his motives
are. I am not going to get into a position of what I
thought somebody else meant.
LAWS:
But this is a very, very crucial contradiction on a very,
very crucial issue. I mean the man has said in one breath
that this was a young girl under the age of consent. He
thought she was more than 14 but he says under the age of
consent. He then goes on to say that later in life when
they were adults, he knew he was talking about a younger
women, so why did he say I thought I was talking about an
older couple. I mean thats contradictory, to say
that its contradictory is very generous.
PRIME MINISTER:
John, I am not going to presume to answer for somebody
else. Thats unreasonable and its also
dangerous, because I dont know what is in the
persons mind. I have no doubt that he will have
something to say about this issue if it is raised and I
am sure it will be.
LAWS:
But, can we really have a Governor General now I
have absolutely nothing against Peter Hollingworth, I
dont know him and Im sure he has endeavoured
to be a very decent man, and I dont think for a
moment that he has committed any criminal offence..
PRIME MINISTER:
No, he has not only not committed any criminal offence,
but I dont think he has been guilty of any moral
lapses either. No more than the rest us. Look were
getting into an incredibly judgemental area.
LAWS:
Weve got to
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but youve got to do it in a fairly objective
fashion.
LAWS:
Im trying to.
PRIME MINISTER:
And thats what Im endeavouring to do as well.
LAWS:
OK but let me say when you say that hes not
responsible for any moral indiscretion or words to that
effect.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think I used the expression moral turpitude which is a
baser kind of moral lapse. I mean everyone on occasions
falls well short of perfection, Archbishops included and
there isnt a person alive who hasnt.
LAWS:
Do you think its a moral lapse for a somebody like
the Governor General to suggest that a 14 year old is
more responsible for her actions than a man 20 years her
senior is ..
PRIME MINISTER:
I dont think for a moment that you can ever condone
people, adults having a sexual relationship with somebody
under age. There are no circumstances in which that can
ever be condoned.
LAWS:
But the Governor General endeavoured to suggest that
perhaps this young girl was more at fault than the older
man. I mean how is that not a moral lapse in judgement.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think youd have to ask the Government
General to explain ..
LAWS:
Did you ask him?
PRIME MINISTER:
When I talked to him I talked about a large number of
things and I am satisfied from my discussion that he did
not condone what happened.
LAWS:
Did you suggest to him that he make that stop outside ..
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we did discuss that issue. As to what he said, I
didnt presume to tell him what to say because only
he knew what was in his mind when he gave the answer. I
mean, it wouldnt have been appropriate for me to
say well I think you ought to say this or I think you
ought to put it that way. That would not have been right,
because I wasnt there. I did say to him that I
believed it was an issue that had to be addressed because
an impression which I am sure he did not intend had been
created.
LAWS:
Do you not think that the whole of the Australian Story
reeked of self preservation?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I dont. I think thats an unfair judgement.
I think that ..
LAWS:
It was not a judgement, it was a question. It wasnt
a judgement it was a question.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, a judgement was implicit in the question.
LAWS:
Anyway ..
PRIME MINISTER:
Lets not fight about that. I thought it was
understandable given everything that had occurred that he
would want to say something on the media. Ill keep
to myself whether I would have given the same advice or
not. Thats not really relevant. He is, given that
his reputation is under severe attack, he has been
subjected to an enormous amount of scrutiny and his
feeling was that he had to put his side of it. Now as in
all of these programs there were probably several hours
of footage and whether what came out represented the
whole balance of it I dont know. I have to say that
my own experience with Australian Story was that it was a
good program
LAWS:
Its very highly regarded.
PRIME MINISTER:
and I have watched many episodes of Australian
story and they were kind enough to do one on me in the
election campaign as they did on Kim Beazley. In the
main, Ive always found them to be quite
straightforward positive stories.
LAWS:
Well why did we get the result we got out of Monday
nights? I mean why did the
PRIME MINISTER:
Im not here to be a media commentator I mean,
Im in the position of having made a judgement on
the evidence, material currently available to me
LAWS:
Im not asking you to be a media commentator, I
wouldnt ask you to lower yourself
PRIME MINISTER:
Im not a political version of, whos doing the
media watch now - David Marr.
LAWS:
I have no idea, I dont look at it. But Im not
suggesting you should be a media commenter, Im
simply suggesting to you that this ongoing thing
it
was considered by the majority of Australians that the
Governor General was dismissive of these allegations in
relation to under age sex molestation, that he appeared
to be dismissive, would you be dismissive of children
being damaged physically as well as psychologically.
PRIME MINISTER:
Never.
LAWS:
Of course you wouldnt.
PRIME MINISTER:
Never.
LAWS:
So how can we tolerate a Governor General who
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I dont believe that he is dismissive.
LAWS:
Well he told a women, Ive spoken to the women, he
told
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you have, I havent
LAWS:
But I must tell you
PRIME MINISTER:
Sure.
LAWS:
That the women endeavoured on more than one occasion to
contact Dr Hollingworth, ultimately he was contacted
firstly by someone from the school, secondly by a nurse
from the school, and thirdly by their legal
representatives, and were told he was too busy, that he
needed a holiday and he couldnt do much about it
anyway and he said on Australian Story I
wasnt up to it. Now if youre not up to
it, if youre crook, you get Peter or somebody to
come along and do the job for you. If youre not up
to it you get somebody else to do it but to be that
dismissive of a girl who was beaten up and found under a
tree, and then raped, and then raped and raped again and
the man who did it had to answer for nothing, in fact the
headmaster of the school in question was offered by Dr
Hollingworth a five thousand dollar increase in salary.
Is that not being dismissive?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I dont know all of those circumstance John.
LAWS:
Well with respect shouldnt you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I do know this
. well I havent had the
benefit of an interview with this woman and you say with
respect should I well
if people want to put
material in front of me that I havent previously
seen I invite them to do so. Im not a person who
ever avoids a difficult situation.
LAWS:
Im aware of that
PRIME MINISTER:
And Im not avoiding a difficult situation this
morning and if people want to put some material to me,
clearly I didnt have the benefit of the interview
that you had, and when you talk to someone directly you
always make a judgement about the strength of what they
put to you and their feeling and you make a judgement
about everything they are putting to you, I understand
that and Ill say if anybody wants to put material
before me then I invite them to do so because Im in
the position of having to make judgements on the basis of
material that is in front of me.
LAWS:
And normally Australia has regarded you as very good at
making those judgements
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I try to, my judgements are not infallible
LAWS:
I suppose nobodys is, but be that as it may we look
to you because we understand that you are a descent man
if youre a friend youre a friend, you are not
going to dismiss people on hearsay evidence. We
understand that we have a Prime Minister of whom we are
proud as being a thoroughly decent human being, but we
all found it very difficult yesterday, I could hear the
country gasp when you said there was no reason to dismiss
the Governor General or even ask him to resign. Now this
woman to whom I spoke told me this story. Ill call
her Sue thats not her name. In 1988, she finds her
daughter whimpering in the dark huddled under a tree, the
girls nose is bleeding, shes crying,
shes in bad shape. This man Kevin Guy apparently
raped her, she kept that secret for 14 years, she only
told her parents last Christmas Eve. For the next three
years after the rape, Kevin Guy went on to rape or
sexually abuse apparently up to 80 girls. Peter
Hollingworth was notified of the abuse when charges were
laid against this man Kevin Guy. On December 18th 1990,
the day that Kevin Guy was to appear in court he
committed suicide, gassing himself in his car after a
suicide note named 20 other girls in the school. Now
after his death the police child abuse unit advised that
all parents at the school should be informed that their
children had been abused. The school tried to keep
Guys suicide and the reason for it as secret as
possible and only the parents of the 20 girls named in
the suicide note were told the truth. The rest of the
school and the rest of the parents were not told and
Peter Hollingworth knew. Now is that not deceiving
parents who have trusted their children into your care?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well this issue was covered in his statement
LAWS:
Very badly by him.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it was covered in his statement, I dont have a
direct knowledge of it, obviously, other than what
appears in what youve said and other material
thats been published and other than what hes
said about it, my recollection, and I dont have his
statement in front of me, was substantially to the effect
of what youve said in relation to circumstances
concerning that poor girl. In relation to the fellow Guy,
well of course he did commit suicide and it is true for
reasons that I just dont have in my mind in at the
moment because I dont have the statement with me
that the advice to communicate with all of the parents
with the school was not followed.
LAWS:
Why wasnt it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I dont
John
hang on just a moment,
we are getting into a very difficult position, I
cant presume to have in my mind the motivations of
the headmaster of the school council. I mean I had
nothing to do with them and I really think we, I
cant really even try and answer questions like
that. All I will do is say something that is silly or is
factually not well based and then people will say well
theres Howard, hes misleading the Australian
public. I mean Howard is not trying to mislead the
Australian public. I am quite
I find this a very
difficult position but Im not going to run away
from dealing with it and Im very happy to deal with
it on public radio, on radio, because I think people are
interested in it and theyre interested in my own
thought processes on the subject. The last thing I am
trying to do is to protect anybody whos been soft
on child sex abuse. Thats the last thing Im
trying to do.
LAWS:
Im aware of that and all Australians are aware of
that.
PRIME MINISTER:
And all I can say is that Im uniquely in the
position, Im the one person whos got to make
a judgment about this
LAWS:
Thats why we need to talk to you about it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Indeed, and Im very happy and the reason that
Im here is that I think this is an issue that the
Australian public is interested in, I am accountable to
the public for the judgments Ive made and I am more
than happy to, as best I can, respond to them by talking
to you because you represent their feelings so very
effectively.
LAWS:
Well lets withdraw the question why wasnt it
acted on. But lets put the question to you the fact
that it wasnt acted upon, excuse me, doesnt
the fact that it wasnt acted upon cast aspersions
on the office and the character of those involved?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Governor General in the statement he made has
tried to deal with the issue relating to Guy, which was
the issue relating to the Toowoomba School, I think in a
couple of areas he disputes the facts mentioned in the
Sunday programme. But theyre issues of detail
rather than issues of substance so I dont want to
go into them lest anybody think Im in any way
trivialising the issue. I made a judgment in relation to
the material that he put out yesterday, the day before
yesterday, I made a judgment that he had I thought
responded to a lot of the allegations that had been
raised in the Sunday programme. And I mean some people
will agree with that judgement, I mean bear in mind that
the person had committed suicide
LAWS:
But youve also got to bear in mind that these
people hadnt been warned and the woman I talked to
simple, decent, Queensland country people who put their
faith in the church, they sent their girl to that school
because they thought shes going to be safe in the
arms of the church. She wasnt. I mean if these
parents had been notified a lot of this could have been
avoided. Somebody has got to be held responsible or
accountable for the fact that there was no notification
given to the parents. I mean a lot of this
heartbreak
.this family is very nearly destroyed.
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that.
LAWS:
Maritally, the relationship with the girl has broken up.
Now a lot of this could have been avoided.
PRIME MINISTER:
A lot of it, I think in all of these situations the day
to day running of a school and the day to day decisions
in relation to a school are more the responsibility, to
be fair, of a school council, and more specifically the
headmaster. And unless theres evidence that there
was some kind of direct and active intervention at an
Archbishop or Bishop level to stop something happening
that made a great deal of sense and afforded additional
protection, its difficult to automatically make the
Bishop or the Archbishop responsibly because on that
basis just about every Archbishop and Bishop anywhere
would be responsible for anything bad that went on in a
school.
LAWS:
Ive got in my hand a letter, Dear Mr and Mrs so and
so, I have received your letter of concerns about the
situation at Toowoomba Preparatory School and I want to
assure you that I have been in close consultation with
the headmaster and the chairman of the school, etc etc
etc. Another paragraph reads I should explain too that
the ramifications of the situation only emerged when I
was interstate and it has not been possible to follow
through your concerns and concerns felt by parents such
as yourself at the time. That letter is signed by Peter
Hollingworth.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes. Ive seen a letter, perhaps a copy of the same
one.
LAWS:
Well he was involved at that level, he wasnt
PRIME MINISTER:
Well somebody wrote to him, what Im saying is he
wasnt involved in employing the teacher.
LAWS:
No but he could have been involved in advising parents.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well normally decisions like that are taken
I mean
it is true that he could have been but the point Im
simply making is that the way independent schools
operate, and denominational independent schools in
particular is that they are run by school councils and
the involvement of an Archbishop in the day to day
conduct of the affairs of the school is normally quite
remote. I mean that is just the reality. Now Im
stating that as a general proposition, Im not
specifically relating that to this issue because there
were other factors. But the assumption that in the day to
day running of the affairs of a school an Archbishop, be
it an Anglican or Catholic or indeed the head of any
other church, or indeed any other organisation to which a
group of schools is attached, that theyre involved
in the day to day running, it doesnt operate that
way. Now thats not meant to excuse or apportion
blame, it is just my understanding of the way in which
these things are organised.
LAWS:
Okay, if Dr Hollingworth was so concerned about the
statement that he made on Australian Story that he
endeavoured to rectify yesterday but simply contradicted
himself by doing it, if he was that concerned about it
dont you find it surprising that the programme was
aired on Monday night, the concern was certainly voiced
on radio, this one, on Tuesday morning. Why did he, I
cant ask you why, dont you think its
surprising that he left it until Thursday to rectify it,
he could have released it, had a press release which we
would have all read.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Im not going to comment on that, I dont
know, I cant answer that.
LAWS:
Did you suggest to him he should say something?
PRIME MINISTER:
What I suggested to him all along was that he should make
a detailed statement about the allegations which had been
made. And I know for a fact that he was working very hard
on that statement all of, what Tuesday, through Tuesday
through to Wednesday. Now I did as I said earlier when I
saw him yesterday, I did mention the issue that
youve been questioning me about, and I said I felt
he should say something about that because there was that
perception which I knew did not accord with his feelings
as I understood them, and his views as I understood them,
very strongly didnt. Now as to the form of that
comment, of course I didnt presume to say well I
think you ought to say this and this and this. I mean I
dont give media coaching to the Governor General
and its not really my place to do that. It is my
place to do, when I think he should deal with an issue,
suggest that he deal with it.
LAWS:
Your concern is mainly about damage to the Office of
Governor General.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, Im concerned about, in this particular
situation, Im concerned about the victims of sex
abuse.
LAWS:
Of course.
PRIME MINISTER:
Very concerned about them. Look I think the damage to the
office
. the office is very important to me,
its important to all Australians, whether you
believe in a monarchy or republic is beside the point. At
the moment it is our constitutional pinnacle if you can
put it that way.
LAWS:
Yes it is.
PRIME MINISTER:
And the office has got to be protected. Now that involves
not
. avoiding if you can controversy surrounding
the office. But it also means avoiding capriciously
dismissing people from the office. There are a lot of
things youve got to take into account.
LAWS:
Dont you think, I know youve got to weigh it
up and I understand its difficult but dont
you think its damaging to the Office of Governor
General to have various charitable organisations who have
had the Governor General as a patron asking him to
resign.
PRIME MINISTER:
I wish that hadnt happened.
LAWS:
Its happened and continuing to happen.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes it does. I think thats regrettable, I think
its a pity that thats occurred. And its
one of those things that Id rather not be the case.
But you cant in my position do an opinion poll or
do a focus group on something like this, you listen to
what the publics got to say but I have to try and
apply some fair and objective criteria in making a
judgement and they were the criteria I tried to outline
in my news conference yesterday. And tried to put all of
those factors into balance and I came to the conclusion
on the information then and now available to me that it
wouldnt have been appropriate to advise the Queen
to remove the Governor General.
LAWS:
Okay, while hes in New Zealand the only questions
hes been asked about are whats going on in
Australia. Can you have a Governor General whos
going to be hunted by a media pack who arent
interested in the fact that hes Governor General
but are simply interested in whether hes going to
last or whether hes not going to last. Isnt
that demeaning to the office?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look it is clearly not desirable. I wish it
werent happening. But just as it would be
undesirable for that to go on indefinitely it would be
equally undesirable that every time a controversy arose
regarding somebody in that position the prime minister,
in order to cut short the controversy, without proper
grounds decided to remove the Governor General. That
would not be desirable either. In the end the
responsibility comes to me and in the end Ive got
to try and make a judgment on all of the material in
front of me. I dont find this pleasant, I
dont find it easy. I feel very much for the people
who have been affected by the bad deeds of others. I have
to pay regard to questions of fairness for them but also
fairness for Peter Hollingworth and also to recognise
that when youre dealing with an issue that people
understandably feel so very strongly about, you always,
and predictably and quite plainly have an emotional
atmosphere. I mean you should bring emotion into
something like this but you have to also bring in reason
and fairness and justice and youve got mix all of
them up and try and get the right outcome and that is
what I am struggling or endeavouring to do.
LAWS:
We all know its very difficult.
PRIME MINISTER:
But Im not reluctant to have a view on it and
Ive formed
.
LAWS:
Okay well one of your reasons for not acting against Dr
Hollingworth, and you said this is that there was no
evidence that hed committed any crime. I mean have
the standards of our Vice Regal office stooped so low
that were concerned merely with criminality?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, but Im not concerned merely with criminality. I
mean I know youre not necessarily saying that but
youre putting that to me as a proposition. I said
that I had to ask myself a number of questions to
determine whether he should be removed and one of those
questions was whether hed committed any crime. One
of the other questions as to whether hed been
guilty of any moral, what I call moral turpitude, I mean
behaved badly as a person morally himself. Now I mean
self evidently I did not say yesterday that the only
standard in relation to the Vice Regal Office was that of
criminality, I explicitly did not limit it to
criminality. I in fact went into quite a number of other
areas, I asked myself whether hed failed to perform
his duties as Governor General well, I mean the answer is
hes worked hard and enthusiastically. No
criminality in his past life and no moral baseness rather
than turpitude and errors of judgment, yes, like the rest
of us, errors of judgment. But I mean I dont just
see it in a cold clinical legal sense, its not like
that.
LAWS:
The Governor General really has to represent the majority
of Australians. Do you agree with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well he has to be somebody who the majority of
Australians feel comfortable with.
LAWS:
Well the majority of Australians dont.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you cant make that judgement just at one point
in time, I mean there were I think, I think its,
its not necessarily a reasonable assessment of
public opinion.
LAWS:
Why?
PRIME MINISTER:
Just to do it at one particular moment. I think the
judgement as to whether the majority of Australians feel
comfortable with a particular person is something that
will go on over a period of time.
LAWS:
This has been going on for some time. Its been
going on since the 12th of December last year.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes it has. And I think its clearly intensified.
LAWS:
Yeah,
PRIME MINISTER:
Well its intensified since the airing of those
claims on the Channel 9 program.
LAWS:
You can hardly say that this is the result of one point
in time the majority of Australians not wanting him to
stay. I mean
.
PRIME MINISTER:
No I didnt say that. I said that you cant
make a judgement about whether the majority of
Australians are comfortable with somebody just by
reference to opinion at one point in time. I mean
theres been plenty of times when the majority of
Australians have probably not wanted me to be Prime
Minister at certain points
.
LAWS:
But they voted for you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah in the end they did but I mean I went up and down.
LAWS:
But they voted for you at one point in time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah exactly they did vote for me because its an
elected position whereas the Governor General is an
appointed position.
LAWS:
Thats right. But they voted for you at one point in
time and now theyre voting about the Governor
General at one point in time and the majority of
Australians dont want him to stay.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well at the moment there is a view, I mean I havent
sort of had any poll done on it and Im not frankly
proposing to. I guess the newspapers will do a number of
polls and theyll probably be published next week
and Im not going to make any predictions about what
they may or may not say. But in the end I cant make
a decision like this other than in an objective fashion.
I think its desirable that people feel comfortable
with somebody but I dont think it necessarily
follows from that that as soon as I see an opinion poll
that says the majority of people want another Governor
General I automatically act on that I mean I
cant
I dont think anybody would
appreciate my doing that. They would think that I was a
poll driven Prime Minister.
LAWS:
You have been.
PRIME MINISTER:
What?
LAWS:
Poll driven.
PRIME MINISTER:
Ive taken notice of public opinion on some issues
and Ive swung against it on others.
LAWS:
Why not this issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Why not? Because Im
well Im not
accepting, I mean I dont know what the poll
evidence youre talking about is. I mean I know from
your own judgement and its very good that
youve formed a view. But I havent seen any
particular opinion poll and I havent commissioned
one and I wont be commissioning one. This is one of
those issues where I have to try and make an objective
judgement and that is what I have done to date and
thats what Im going to continue to do.
Its difficult but Im not walking away from
it.
LAWS:
No I know that and we admire that even though we may not
all agree with it we admire it let me tell you that. Have
you seen this mornings Courier Mail?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
LAWS:
Let me read something to you. Former Archbishop of
Brisbane Peter Hollingworth allegedly told a woman who
claimed she was sexually assaulted in the loft of
Brisbanes St Johns Anglican Cathedral that
mens sexual urges were only human. She claimed
Archbishop Hollingworth said were only human after
all. At the same meeting the Archbishop asked whether
shed been a blonde at the time of the alleged
incidents. Dr Hollingworths comments to the woman
have been corroborated by Karen Walsh, a support advocate
who also attended the 1998 and 2000 meetings. His
analysis was to blame the victim, blame the woman. He
reframed the event as an affair for which she had equal
responsibility.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I havent seen that story, I dont know
anything about the circumstances.
LAWS:
How do you feel about it?
PRIME MINISTER:
How do I feel about it? Well I dont like the
way
.but Ive only heard, you know, I
dont know anything about it. I mean John, how do I
feel about? Well it sounds very surprising to me and it
would not be the sort of thing that somebody in that
position ought to say.
LAWS:
Well if thats the case where do we go from here?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I dont know that it is the case John and
look you cant, fair go. I mean Im very happy
to be frank in answering questions. I mean to put
something like that, I havent seen that. It
hasnt been put to Dr Hollingworth. I dont
know any other context to it and Im really not
going to get dragged into commenting on that on what is a
very hypothetical situation.
LAWS:
Well not hypothetical. Its been corroborated.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well its hypothetical because I dont know the
facts.
LAWS:
Okay. Well if you think thats unfair I dont
want to be unfair.
PRIME MINISTER:
No Im not
.Im simply saying Im in
no position to objectively answer a question. Youre
reading out to me a story in a newspaper. I havent
read the story but I accept that you would have read it
out accurately. I dont know anything of the facts.
There is nothing in that story that reflects Dr
Hollingworths view on the alleged incident. To ask
me to make a judgement on it is I think on this occasion
unreasonable.
LAWS:
It was Dr Hollingworth who said we men are only human
after all.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I dont know what was said because I
wasnt there and Ive always held the view that
men should behave appropriately.
LAWS:
Youre not getting angry with me are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No Im trying to be very calm but Im also
trying to point out to you John that its a bit much
to ask me to comment on a comment by some people that has
been read out without my knowing any of the
circumstances. I wasnt there, I dont know his
side of the story and I simply cannot comment on it
because I dont know anything.
LAWS:
Okay. Youve been very generous with your time and I
hope I havent been unnecessarily probing with mine.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no thats your job and can I say to you and to
your many listeners that this is a difficult important
issue and I am perfectly happy to be questioned about the
judgement I have come to at present and Im
perfectly happy to talk to the Australian people about
this very difficult issue because it involves a lot of
issues.
LAWS:
Yes it does. But do you understand, and Im sure you
do, youre smarter than I am, that this is going to
go on day after day? I mean once people start to talk
then the others get the courage and youre going to
be confronting this and so will he. It will go on and on
and on.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well its been going on for a while I understand
that and that is a factor that I take into account but it
cant be the only factor. I mean you cant in
my position base decisions you take only or
overwhelmingly on a desire to get the issue out of the
papers and away from public gaze because if you do that
on this or indeed any other issue you can end up making
an incorrect judgement, you can end up being unfair. In
the end on some issues you have to go through the
difficulty of trial by publicity and public scrutiny and
so forth. I accept that. Now thats something I take
into account but its not the only thing I take into
account because if I did I could make an unfair
judgement.
LAWS:
Is the fact that Her Majesty the Queen is coming to
Australia, did that weigh heavily upon the decision you
made yesterday?
PRIME MINISTER:
It didnt affect it in any way. Her Majesty has had
a long experience in public life and shes gone
through and been able to handle difficult situations of
all kinds and done it with enormous aplomb and that was
not a factor in the judgement I made. If youre
suggesting in some way I thought Ill just put it
off until the Queens visit is over, no no. I made
the judgement quite independently of the timing of the
Queens visit. I mean in the end the Queen acts
entirely on my advice in relation to these things. I
respect her as a person very much and I think shes
widely admired in the Australian community whatever their
views may be about a republic. She personally has been an
extraordinary and exemplary constitutional monarch for
now 50 years and people genuinely like her. Now I
dont think anybody wants any embarrassment for her
but on the other hand shes handled difficult
situations. She has a lot of skill at that.
LAWS:
So she was not the catalyst in the decision?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. She is not in any way the catalyst in this decision.
LAWS:
You couldnt guarantee the future of Dr Hollingworth
could you?
PRIME MINISTER:
I cant guarantee anybodys future. I
cant guarantee mine. I cant guarantee
anybodys future. All I can do is to respond to the
situation as it is now. I mean Dr Hollingworth, and I
dont say this with any intent other than a
statement of fact, he holds office at the Queens
pleasure and that pleasures exercised on my advice
or the advice of the Prime Minister of the day and
thats me, and itll certainly be me for some
time.
LAWS:
Thank you very much for your time Prime Minister. I know
that our listeners around Australia would have
appreciated it very much as well. Thank you for your
directness and as I say I hope I wasnt too probing
but thats what Ive got to do.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thats your job.
LAWS:
Good to talk to you John.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[Ends]
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